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Bentham's Bulldog's avatar

I have a bunch of things to say about the subject, but let me note just a few:

1) You should be highly uncertain about the subject. When lots of smart people disagree on a subject that you're not an expert on, even if you've done a decent amount of reading about it, you should basically never be more than 80% confident, especially if your view is the minority view. But the case for shrimp welfare goes through even if you're 95% sure shrimp aren't conscious, just because of the insane degree of the carnage and effectiveness.

2) I think we're largely in the dark about what ingredients are needed for consciousness. If this is right, then Key's speculation by analogy about the ingredients needed not being present in fish is highly improbable. Behavior is all we have to go off of. And shrimp behave in lots of ways that we'd expect them to if they felt pain (see my piece).

3) The sorts of things slime molds do are very rudimentary compared to what shrimp do--relevantly like a computer or mouse trap with many settings rather than a conscious being.

4) I do think you misrepresented me a bit. I'm now super confident in shrimp pain--I'd put it in the low 60s.

5) I couldn't find a source for the claim that shrimp eat their own body parts. I couldn't even find people using the word autophagy to mean eating one's own body parts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autophagy

6) The Key view implies octopi aren't conscious, which I take to be a decisive counterexample.

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Glenn's avatar

Interesting read. I’m going to look more into whether ending eyestalk ablation actually causes the industry to farm more shrimp and catch more fish, as that’s a massive risk I don’t want to end up supporting. (If that is true, it would probably be better to focus shrimp advocacy on reducing consumption…) But I’m not convinced of the main argument.

I had also come across the Key paper and my impression is that it’s a small minority view in the field. If I was more knowledgeable about neuroscience and philosophy of mind (and hence if all the research was a lot more comprehensible to me), I’d probably be able to make a judgment based more directly on the evidence… but otherwise I’m going to base my priors on what most people in the field are saying. That seems to be very strong in the direction of “fish experience things that can be better or worse for them” and also more in favor of shrimp feeling than not feeling.

If you can make a stronger case that this is because of cancel culture, then I’d update a lot in the direction of no pain. Would like to hear more about this.

You’d have to show me very strong evidence of that, however, since the number of fish and shrimp used for food is so huge that it would be worth it to “dump money into the ocean” as I had put it) even if you assumed P(sentience) is, say, 0.01 or lower.

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